tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post636962416100567612..comments2023-06-06T09:45:25.974-05:00Comments on This Tent's Just Right: Thorns on a Rose: An Analysis of Dr. Yarnell’s SermonDave Millerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-56295716332782499322009-03-02T21:09:00.000-06:002009-03-02T21:09:00.000-06:00I just saw your question in the comments list ther...I just saw your question in the comments list there. I don't think I'll be Dr. Miller any time soon. I'm actually being considered for an associate role by a church in Texas. For now, I'm just seeing how that goes.Andy Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05919092765405860815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-9837636817992214562009-03-01T17:45:00.000-06:002009-03-01T17:45:00.000-06:00Dave,You sure said correctly when you said: I'm so...Dave,<BR/><BR/>You sure said correctly when you said: I'm so well-behaved that if my mouth didn't get me in trouble, I'd never get in trouble!<BR/><BR/>The only thing I would change is WELL-BEHAVED would be WELL-BALANCED in all your Posts and Comments. that is why you are in a special league of Bloggers. <BR/><BR/>CB you also are in that league, EXCEPT I don't know about the WELL-BEHAVED???<BR/><BR/>wAYNEWayne Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14218244632682134340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-81359684744032561022009-03-01T17:14:00.000-06:002009-03-01T17:14:00.000-06:00I'm so well-behaved that if my mouth didn't get me...I'm so well-behaved that if my mouth didn't get me in trouble, I'd never get in trouble!Dave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-11774190167894769902009-03-01T17:06:00.000-06:002009-03-01T17:06:00.000-06:00Yes, Dave, you will regret those words.That is, if...Yes, Dave, you will regret those words.<BR/><BR/>That is, if they ever open the comments at SBC TODAY again.:-)<BR/><BR/>cbCB Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230652312241919771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-11209077208903317192009-02-28T23:09:00.000-06:002009-02-28T23:09:00.000-06:00Ben, I am probably speaking before I have thought ...Ben, I am probably speaking before I have thought it through well enough, a common ailment with me - but I would say that I view Baptist congregationalism as a biblically acceptable ecclesiology, but not necessarily a mandated governance. <BR/><BR/>"A" biblical ecclesiology, but not "the" biblical ecclesiology. <BR/><BR/>I'll probably regret those words sometime.Dave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-83578534858673078552009-02-28T22:56:00.000-06:002009-02-28T22:56:00.000-06:00Dave, You wrote: "The idea that Baptist "congregat...Dave, <BR/><BR/>You wrote: "The idea that Baptist "congregationalism" is the only biblical form of governance is really a stretch, to me."<BR/><BR/>Most systematic theologies present three systems of church goverment: 1) congregational, 2) presbyterian, and 3) episcopal. <BR/><BR/>In the first the local congregation makes the decisions, in the second a board of elders makes the decisions and in the third a bishop makes the decisions. <BR/><BR/>While there may be some variety in #1, I strongly affirm congregationism as the biblical form of goverment. Even those Southern Baptists who believe in multiple elders, believe the local church ultimately makes the decisions. <BR/><BR/>I agree that Christ is to be the head of the church and leaders must be godly men. <BR/><BR/>However I think the issue is whether Baptist ecclesiology is just one of many options or it biblical ecclesiology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-48584582613136814262009-02-28T19:11:00.000-06:002009-02-28T19:11:00.000-06:00Dave,This is about 2 years old and it also shows w...Dave,<BR/><BR/>This is about 2 years old and it also shows where Dr Yarnell stands on other brothers and sisters in Christ.<BR/><BR/>UNREPENTENT SINNERS <BR/>he Definition of a Great Commission Christian<BR/><BR/>First and most germane to our ongoing conversation, please consider the definition of Great Commission Christians. It seems that the hasty move to recognize other evangelicals as Great Commission Christians has introduced thoughts and practices that undermine the biblical mandate. Rather than rehearsing the historical basis of this destructive error in Southern Baptist life, David, let me propose that we seek to answer the following question: Does a Great Commission Christian have to obey the Great Commission of Jesus Christ in its entirety and in its God-given order, or may we summarily dispense with some aspects of it, or practice it contrary to the God-given order, or emphasize something else?<BR/><BR/>The problem in postmodern missionary practice in the Southern Baptist Convention is largely due to the unwillingness to maintain the beliefs that our biblicist forefathers held in this matter. In other words, David, let us be clear that on the basis of the long-standing Baptist interpretation of the Great Commission, the following groups specifically do not qualify to be called Great Commission Christians: Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians (and other Reformed Churches), Non-Baptist Congregationalists, Quakers, Methodists, Pentecostals, and Assemblies of God. I will not provide an exhaustive list, for that would require a dictionary, but suffice it to say that any other Christian group that believes or practices what these Christian denominations distinctively believe and practice may not be legitimately classified as Great Commission Christians, even if some of them may be classified as "evangelicals."<BR/><BR/>The reasons that these Christian churches do not deserve to be classified as Great Commission Christians are that they violate Christ’s will in one or more of these three ways: 1) They do not obey the entirety of the Great Commission. 2) They do not follow the order of the Great Commission. Specifically, many of them place baptism prior to the making of disciples. 3) They do not emphasize the faith delivered by our Lord, but add other requirements. For instance, some of them elevate or transform the gifts of speaking in tongues or of healing, and then seek to sway other Christians to their unbiblical positions.<BR/><BR/>"Unrepentant Sinners" and "The Baptist Renaissance"<BR/><BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/><BR/>MalcolmWallyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16967197816579690289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-57444604007018568692009-02-28T18:05:00.000-06:002009-02-28T18:05:00.000-06:00The sad thing is it took me a day to figure out th...The sad thing is it took me a day to figure out that that is what I have been trying to say all along.Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14616108342223765777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-36759161329511394542009-02-28T17:56:00.000-06:002009-02-28T17:56:00.000-06:00I think that is a very fair point, LukeI think that is a very fair point, LukeDave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-23638951864488083612009-02-28T17:49:00.000-06:002009-02-28T17:49:00.000-06:00And THAT is where I think Tom went askew. He inte...And THAT is where I think Tom went askew. He interpreted spoken grammar the same way that he would a written technical paper. I just don't think that is valid way to conduct a critique. Context has everything to do with the sermon. Now had Dr. Yarnell written this and even elaborated on it towards the direction that Tom was saying it was meant, there would be a much better point to be made. But I definitely think that to take the grammar of a spoken sermon and treating it like a formal paper is an improper technique.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for being discussion minded.Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14616108342223765777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-29408115020985758422009-02-28T17:42:00.000-06:002009-02-28T17:42:00.000-06:00Luke, I agree with you. Some of what Dr. Yarnell ...Luke, I agree with you. Some of what Dr. Yarnell teaches disturbs me, but I am not willing to believe that he thinks that you have to be Baptized to be saved. I am quite sure he does not. <BR/><BR/>Here's my point. Tim and Peter have excoriated Tom Ascol for his perspective. I think they have been unfair. <BR/><BR/>Dr. Ascol, it seems clear to me, properly interpreted what was said - on a grammatical level. <BR/><BR/>If he was guilty of anything, it was not giving a brother the benefit of the doubt. <BR/><BR/>Nonetheless, what is clear to me is that it is what Dr. Yarnell said that started the problem. <BR/><BR/>Again, this whole thing could be solved if Dr. Yarnell would just clarify his words.Dave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-81168045261787950302009-02-28T17:36:00.000-06:002009-02-28T17:36:00.000-06:00What about the context though? Doesn't that say a...What about the context though? Doesn't that say as much as anything? Even Jesus told us to pluck out our eyes if they offend us. Certainly we need not back off the truth simply because it is a hard one to wrap our minds around, right? <BR/><BR/>I guess at this point, I am just not willing to attribute some hidden BI meaning to what he said.Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14616108342223765777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-89071426283699149802009-02-28T17:31:00.000-06:002009-02-28T17:31:00.000-06:00Luke, The title, "Thorns on a Rose" describes my f...Luke, <BR/><BR/>The title, "Thorns on a Rose" describes my feelings. I thought that the sermon was very powerful and biblical, as I said. <BR/><BR/>But I have a serious problem with the statements I quoted. Either he misstated or is guilty of a seriously disturbing belief. I certainly hope it is the former.Dave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-73506218737202732742009-02-28T17:27:00.000-06:002009-02-28T17:27:00.000-06:00Dave,I believe the comment that Dr. Yarnell made, ...Dave,<BR/>I believe the comment that Dr. Yarnell made, in the context of his sermon passage, was as forceful as it needed to be. That passage is extremely heavy and calls each of us to examine ourselves in a serious light. Now I have not read or listened to much of Dr. Yarnell's stuff. It would be a HUGE leap to say that I am a Yarnell supporter. But I believe, again, that within the context of the passage, his statement is a valid statement.<BR/><BR/>I think the whole message was pretty powerful and challenges a lot of weak christian living of today. Maybe that is why we find the statement to be so outstanding, on different levels of course, but outstanding.Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14616108342223765777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-27734597169630405172009-02-28T17:18:00.000-06:002009-02-28T17:18:00.000-06:00Andy, what's next? Dr Miller?Andy, what's next? <BR/>Dr Miller?Dave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-15579400401799062492009-02-28T17:17:00.000-06:002009-02-28T17:17:00.000-06:00Ben, I am not sure any of our current denomination...Ben, <BR/><BR/>I am not sure any of our current denominational structures present a perfect biblical structure. <BR/><BR/>The idea that Baptist "congregationalism" is the only biblical form of governance is really a stretch, to me. <BR/><BR/>I think first and foremost, the bible stresses the godly character of those who lead the church rather than a specific structure. We put too much emphasis on structure, not enough on character. <BR/><BR/>For instance, the common Baptist idea that the Pastor and the elder role are identical is hard to support biblically. It seems pretty clear that NT churches had multiple elders, not a single pastor. <BR/><BR/>I don't see that the NT reveals a single biblical church structure. Regard Christ as the head, choose leaders according to their character - these are the key issues.Dave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-41858727858006254852009-02-28T17:04:00.000-06:002009-02-28T17:04:00.000-06:00Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I'll be do...Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I'll be done in May. I'm glad that Josh is going to Southeastern.Andy Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05919092765405860815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-59142363427912089042009-02-28T16:28:00.000-06:002009-02-28T16:28:00.000-06:00Dave, You wrote: "but I guess I have not come to t...Dave, <BR/><BR/>You wrote: <BR/>"but I guess I have not come to the place of being quite as convinced that we are the only representation of the New Testament church or that congregationalism is the only acceptable form of church government as he has." <BR/><BR/>Two simple questions: <BR/><BR/>1. Do you believe that Presbyterianism and Episcopalianism are biblical forms of church goverment? <BR/><BR/>2. Do you believe that baptismal regeneration and infant baptism are representative of the churches of the New Testament?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-53178340384497011022009-02-28T14:13:00.000-06:002009-02-28T14:13:00.000-06:00James, Dr. Yarnell's words are pretty clear - desp...James, <BR/><BR/>Dr. Yarnell's words are pretty clear - despite what his supporters are saying. <BR/><BR/>I am giving him the benefit of the doubt, that he does not actually believe that the salvation of an unbaptized person is called into question, but his words say that. <BR/><BR/>What bothers me is that he is usually so precise and says what he means. But I have to keep hoping that he only misspoke, that he does not really believe what he said.Dave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-25529047915005992682009-02-28T14:09:00.000-06:002009-02-28T14:09:00.000-06:00Andy, I think that Southeastern is closer to South...Andy, <BR/><BR/>I think that Southeastern is closer to Southern than it is to Southwestern. Southwestern has become a lone island. <BR/><BR/>But look at the "Between the Times" blog. You have a calvinist and a non-calvinist debating and trying to form a basis for partnership and fellowship. <BR/><BR/>Southern, because of its Abstract, can only really hire Calvinists (not that there's anything wrong with that). So you get top-level Calvinist theology. <BR/><BR/>Southwestern is going in a completely opposite direction, of course - articulating a very narrow, traditionalist, Landmarkish vision of the SBC. <BR/><BR/>Southeastern, from what I have read, is more representative of the whole convention, different perspectives on Calvinism, on eschattology, etc. That's what I like. <BR/><BR/>Josh plans to go to Southeastern (I think mostly because of geography). If he had gone to Southern, I would not be upset at all. If he went to my alma mater, SWBTS, I would be a little concerned. I would be happy if he went to Midwestern because we could see him more!<BR/><BR/>When do you graduate?Dave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-57401037527109243282009-02-28T13:42:00.000-06:002009-02-28T13:42:00.000-06:00Dave:Thanks for your thoughts on this issue. I fe...Dave:<BR/>Thanks for your thoughts on this issue. I felt a bit reassured as I read your post that it wasn't "just me" who was analyzing Dr. Yarnell's comments (these and others) in a similar manner.Rev.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01921507566144608199noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-35675925255631328202009-02-28T13:04:00.000-06:002009-02-28T13:04:00.000-06:00I have not seen Bigfoot. I heard he migrated to I...I have not seen Bigfoot. I heard he migrated to Iowa.<BR/><BR/>Do you think Southern and Southeastern are really that much different, as compared to Southwestern? I admit my bias and that I don't know everyone coming out of Southern, but I think most of the guys I know being trained here would agree with the conclusions being posted on Between the Times. It is certainly more difficult to come out of Southern without being a Calvinist, but I think commitment to Gospel unity seems to be very much the same between SEBTS and SBTS. <BR/><BR/>But I'm saying that from the inside looking out. I'm sure it's a much different perspective being in SBC churches outside of Louisville, Wake Forest and Fort Worth.Andy Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05919092765405860815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-22485776351743712862009-02-28T11:33:00.000-06:002009-02-28T11:33:00.000-06:00On the other hand, the Wild Geese will not drown, ...On the other hand, the Wild Geese will not drown, they will just fly away. <BR/><BR/>Someday, you have to explain that one to me. I'm in a special blogging class. We ride the short bus. <BR/><BR/>If anyone else reads this, I apologize.Dave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-87625180001223871372009-02-28T11:29:00.000-06:002009-02-28T11:29:00.000-06:00Dave,I think that if we all fell into Blogtown Pon...Dave,<BR/><BR/>I think that if we all fell into Blogtown Pond and drowned the SBC would never miss a beat and life would go on.:-)<BR/><BR/>cbCB Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230652312241919771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-114002885429445588.post-84679936150958041932009-02-28T11:09:00.000-06:002009-02-28T11:09:00.000-06:00I will grant you that, CB. I will make a bigger po...I will grant you that, CB. <BR/><BR/>I will make a bigger point. I am wondering how significant the entire blogging world is. There is a group of about 25 or 30 common readers and commenters. Do we really affect the general Baptist world? Are any of us as significant as we like to think? <BR/><BR/>I do think that Wade believes he has a big following. I do not believe that is so. <BR/><BR/>I guess time will tell. I never thought America would choose Obama over McCain either.Dave Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01637750764381837761noreply@blogger.com